View source for Talk:Violet wand

The article was copied from Wikipedia, ideally this should be edited to make it more releevant to the UK scene and to the BDSM community as a whole.

Yup, I've done that, adding a bit more about the safety questions people often ask.

Tanos says: I think if any one is going to argue that the article must include a blanket statement that VWs should not be used above the waist, then we should discuss this with the people on the violetray yahoogroup. I've also corrected the WikiPedia's original and misleading comments about RCDs: people are playing with these things in clubs and RCDs seem a pretty good idea in that context to me (a lot of venues have RCDs built-in to the wall sockets now, just for speakers even.)

Hmmm, ta for that Tanos. The reason I spent quite a bit of my precious time adding some very relevant information for VW users regarding safety and the "below the waist rule" is because as a doctor I am in a position to know. If you're going to go around removing anything I post when I'm trying to be helpful then I will not feel very willing to help out in future. I rather feel most users would appreciate the informed opinion of a doctor rather than gossip from a yahoo group. sluttylatexboy.

The nature of a Wiki means that debate may well take place about an issue in this way, I don't think it's a lack of apprevciation fo the time someone has spent putting info in, as much as someone else's right to have a different view... I think the idea is that in the end a concensus is reached. There has been some debate on LFS about this issue too. Use of VW's above the waist is rife, but Uncle Abdul's book, Juice, is cautious on the issue.

I'll try to find some more info

Fuschia

x

Thanks Fuschia. I appreciate that this is a dynamic resource and have absolutely no problem with my posts, or anyone elses, being edited. Many things in medicine are controversial, but there are certain things that are agreed upon. What galls here is the summary deletion of what was a well intentioned explanation of the physiology behind the "below the waist" argument, intended to arm readers with facts they could use to weigh up the pros and cons for themselves. It would have been possible for Tanos to leave my explanation, but reframed it as "one point of view" rather than dismissing it as a "blanket statement." The very notion that physiological facts should be passed by some yahoo committee before publication is laughable. Tanos' assertion that glass VWs are safe to use internally was dangerous and irresponsible- whilst not wanting to engage in tit-for-tat deletions, in the interests of safety I have therefore corrected this one issue. Summary deletions like this risk discrediting what is an admirable and potentially very useful resource, and making others very reluctant to contribute. sluttylatexboy

Tanos says: "The point is that this is a WIKIPEDIA. That means nothing is ever deleted: it's all there in the previous revisions - just a cut and paste away. I'm also suprised that sluttylatexboy hasn't come across the violetray and violetray_play Yahoo groups. Given the people who are posting there, they are hardly "some yahoo group." Furthermore, the word "never" takes a lot of justifying: it's easy to come up with set-ups involving restrained legs and plastic speculums that make it very hard to see how a limited amount of insertion with a glass electrode is dangerous. Finally, the assertion that the words "great care should be taken" is a statement saying "this is safe" is hardly an example of evidence-based practice, is it? There are quite a few professionals in various disciplines around here."


Slutty replies: Without wanting to go round and round in circles on this one, I refer you to the above reply to Fuschia regarding presentation of the facts so that others may make up their own minds. Deprive them of this information and you deprive them of the opportunity to make informed decisions. No, I have not come across the yahoo groups you mention. This does not detract in any way from my professional experience. In the context of placing delicate glass objects in the anus or rectum the use of the word "never" needs no justification. I am well aware that you said "great care should be taken," but given the degree of damage this could cause, this is insufficient warning and I stand by my use of "never." As to evidence-based medicine: I have had to clear up the "evidence" far too often, and do not want anyone else to injure themselves. Lastly, yes there are many professionals round here. Many of them will now think twice about contributing to this resource when it is obvious that the time and help they can give is not appreciated. sluttylatexboy

Balzac Says: I have had a look at the posts and I would like to edit the article to include both points of view. I think sluttylatexboy has documented some important risks which I think the reader should be made aware of. However I acceopt that Tanos's view represents a broad base of opinion of experienced users of VW. I think by having both views we can help people make informed choices. An analogy would be the drug ecstasy, the medical profession (I assume) would advise that it is never taken recreationally, but a large number of people take it without adverse effects (except the very few that drop dead!). What people need to be able to do is assess the risks themselves and then make a decsion on how they want to use VWs. Would the contributers be happy for me to do the edit? Can we hold off on any more edits until we have agreement (for the sake of all our tempers :-) ) [[User:Balzac|Balzac]] 10:17, 3 Apr 2005 (BST)

A bit of a test of the Wipi-concept, really!

:I agree with Balzac.  In fact, I think this is an issue that needs to be decided for the Wipi as a whole, not just Violet wands.  I'd suggest addopting wholesale Wikipedia's position on this issue: use the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view Neutral Point of View] -- [[User:PallandoZi|PallandoZi]]

I was thinking about this in bed last night, and it's true to say, i think, that both statements are true: the BDSM world generally sees VW play as less risky as it's perceived as static electricity going across the skin. A medical opinion will always have a very negative view of any risk of an electric current crossing the heart. VW-fans may choose to go ahead, in the spirit of [[RACK]]

By the way, here is the Uncle Abdul info:

[http://www.uncleabdul.com/UAweb122.htm The Balloon Experiment â€” A Definitive Demonstration That Violet Wand Currents Go Through the Body 
] It says that the current DOESN'T just go across the skin, but "It can be inferred then that this resistance string would most probably result in an internal body current measuring less than a microamp (1/1,000,000th of an amp).

What can be inferred here is that there may be some saving graces in Violet Wand play. While this has yet to be more adequately demonstrated scientifically, these considerations plus the anecdotal evidence that there aren't any reported instances of injury or death should point to the relative safety of Violet Wand play."

Re Conrad's revert of the text to say that glass electrodes should only be used internally WITH GREAT CARE, my own risk assessment would go along more with sluttylatexboy, ie NEVER. But people are obviously entitled to make their own decisions on these matters, assessing the risk for themselves. 

Fuschia

Balzac says: The medical view point will always be more cautious than the non medical as they have to work to much higher standards of safety and patient care. It is up to the individual to decide do they take the advice, or accept the risks involved in taking action that goes against that advice. [[User:Balzac|Balzac]] 11:07, 3 Apr 2005 (BST)

Since this page seems to be contentious, I wonder if the factions would be happy to have someone else look over the various versions and then assemble text.  I am willing to do this.  I know nothing of violent wands so would be on a learning curve and would attempt to incorporate as much text as possible, even if it disagrees with itself.
--[[User:Interesdom|Interesdom]] 12:04, 3 Apr 2005 (BST)

For my part, as I've always said, yes I am very happy for any third parties to edit this section. I actually think Interesdom's offer has merits too, as his edit may reflect those of a reader "interpreting" the various viewpoints included. I agree totally with Balzacs analogy to Ecstasy and peoples right to choose how much risk they take for themselves. My approach was always to avoid being judgemental, and not to "tow the (medical) party line," but to stick to the available facts and allow others, such as experienced wand users add (not the constructive, not destructive) their point of view. As far as the internal use thing goes, I could not go along with anything but "Never" as we muct accept that while some of us may feel we are intelligent enough to think about this and "take care," being an open internet resource other less thoughtful and careful readers may interpret anything less than a "never" as a green light of sorts. Then you could, even with all the disclaimers in the world, have left yourselves open to litigation. A number of very experienced scene regulars who I was talking too last night agreed that it is madness to use violet wands anally. Go ahead and edit as you see fit, but please do not attribute this to me if you choose to take a course other than "never." slutty

Tanos says: "I've only now seen slutty's behaviour on the LFS web board about this and his references to me by name, and I now see the reason for some of the above comments about 'tempers.' Given the emotional places some people seem to be coming from, I think the best way forward would be to (a) get the experts in violetray and violetray_play involved - they can join in the editing process themselves easily enough - and (b) include references to pages or published articles about the dangers of '''VW use''' above the waist. (ie about VWs, and not general references about the dangers of devices that genuinely do produce dangerous amounts of current.) Can you provide those references, slutty?"

Some more relevant links [http://home.earthlink.net/~violetwands/myth.html  VW myths] 

[http://home.earthlink.net/~violetwands/intro.html VW info]

[http://www.medicaltoys.com/lib-electric.htm www.medicaltoys.com]

[http://www.listmistress.org/bdsm/violetwand.html www.listmistress.org]

[http://www.1763.net/rules www.1763.net]

[http://www.tokink.com/2005/rules.php www.tokink.com]

I must say all these sites, while stating that electrical play should not take place above the waist, do make an exception for VWs, although some sites urge extra caution for those with pacemakers, etc.

Fuschia

Tanos says: "Pallando mentioned the Wikipedia's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#What_is_the_neutral_point_of_view.3F Neutral Point of View principle]. Well indeed: ''Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute ... If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents''  I believe my original recasting of the VW article followed exactly the first principle, and my question about references for the 'no VW above the waist' position follows the second."

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I don't know where this goes.  It's my view on the above the waist question and other questions.

An electrical current that can excite nerves and cause muscle contractions can disrupt the action of the heart.  The violet wand cannot do this to any appreciable extent, because its current is too low, and largely at a frequency to which nerves are insensitive.  The erotic and emotional effects of play with a wand is much more likely to bring on a heart attack than the electrical effect.

Last night the Prof was using one of his black boxes above the waist and he told me that this was perfectly safe because of its low current.  That current would have been many times the current from a violet wand and at a frequency which '''does''' excite nerves.  Commercial muscle toners are designed for above-the-waist use.  Open the Argos catalogue to see several pictures of above the waist electrodes, and one photo in my copy shows electrodes on the cheek and temple.  Millions of these are in use.  These are '''designed''' to stimulate muscles.

In short, the risk to the heart from the correct use of a working wand is about on a par with the risk of getting a brain haemorrhage from picking one's nose.

Electronic equipment should be kept well away from violet wands.  It is sensitive to voltage differences which a wand can easily produce.  A fully implanted device like a pacemaker is very unlikely to experience an unsafe voltage but might be affected by electromagnetic and RF interference and the risk is not worth taking. 

A spark to metal in contact with the body is completely safe and will not be felt.  This is because the spark does not come into contact with skin, and the area of metal in contact with the body is enough for the current density to be too low to be felt or to have any other effect.

An RCD can be tripped by a correctly working violet wand because it creates unbalanced currents.  If this doesn't make an RCD impractical it would protect against fault conditions such as contact with damaged leads.

Conto (a moderator of the violetray and violetray_play groups, not that that proves anything)

----

I have redone the page, trying to incorporate all majors viewpoints, weighted by my own research.  

I have ommitted some of the safety depth because some people will switch off and not read the fundamental stuff if it is too verbose.  If it is felt that the safety background belongs somewhere, it would be best in a separate page.  Similarly, I have ommitted some of the technical information.  If separate pages are created on safety or technical aspects, parts of this page could be moved.
--[[User:Interesdom|Interesdom]] 01:05, 5 Apr 2005 (BST)

Oh come on!  Don't tell me I did such a great job of editing that even after a week, no-one feels like making a few changes!  :)
--[[User:Interesdom|Interesdom]] 17:37, 13 Apr 2005 (BST)


Conto, it proves a lot.  ;)  how have you been?  (if you get back here.)

This article was sadly out of date, and the original wikipedia article was a mashup of several articles I wrote back in 1998 that left out critical information! I have updated this article to reflect the current research and data on use, techniques and safety of violet wands and to more accurately answer the needs of the BDSM community.  Yes, I am a manufacturer and my interest is largely commercial, but it is because I manufacture these specific kink devices that I understand exactly what can and can't, or should and shouldn't be done with them, having invested thousands in clinical research jointly conducted with the International Violet Wand Guild.  Many advances have been experienced with violet wand construction, making them safer and more useful, as well as in their accessories and electrodes.  They are definitely not their violet ray grandparents any longer, so I have also updated the techniques remarks to reflect these technique developments over the last six years since the article was last updated as well.

--[[User:Violetwanda|Violetwanda]] , 23 Sep 2010